Great post. I wonder, given your wide range of experience in Christiandom, if you ever encountered "seven steps to freedom in christ" ? I had a few years ago, a modified version and it was not helpful for my mental health and I suspect a lot of other peoples health. I don't know if I would put this in NAR category but it does reference demonic activities involved with mental illness quite a bit.
It sounds like a Gothard thing when I initially hear it. He loved steps! But I’ll check it out.
UPDATE: it’s Neil Anderson’s stuff which is Gothard adjacent. They liked to use (steal) each other’s formulas. This kind of thing was heavily taught in my Christian cult. My biggest problems with it are:
- It presents mental illness as a sin/demonic struggle that can be solved by following steps and choosing to believe or act a certain way.
- It pretends you can follow formulas to get specific results.
- It twists scripture and biblical ideas.
I think the whole thing is religious bogus that has just enough truth in it to sound plausible to people who don’t know better and want a fix. 😭
I’m not at all surprised that it was more harmful than helpful to you. And I’m sorry that you encountered it.
Wow I had no idea he was connected to Gothard! Or adjacent to! You always know your stuff :)
This is insightful since my old church, which I would call bethel/ihop adjacent, used a modified version of this. So you are spot on there is a connection between the NAR and your old cult!
Here's one example, they modified over the years but the same principle of if you confess and pray over a list of things you'll feel better. And connecting voices and negative thoughts to demons or spirits does not help anyone get better!
It’s crazy how so many religious groups use formulas to offer control. Some of it is that they are actually connected but I think much of it is that we naturally gravitate to formulas trying to grab for security.
Great post - I did not know about the Lectio app and will check that out. I do She Reads Truth for my daily scripture practice and has worked really well. Sword of the word ⚔️
This repudiation of anything, joyful or pleasurable seems to be present primarily in Christian cults such as Gotthard, pseudo Christian cults, like the Jehovah’s Witnesses, and even in very fundamentalist Christian churches. The Baptists, God love them, with their prohibitions on drinking, dancing, smoking, etc. Come to mind. It is a manifestation of legalism, placing adherence to the law above the new covenant of grace. I believe that God gives us a certain gifts, and they are often things which we genuinely enjoy and have a passion for. It is true, that if we allow these things to be more important than God, they can become false idols, but I believe they are also things which God can use in their proper place and submission for his purposes.
I have come to the belief that if the Kingdom of God is within us (and it is), and if we are the Temple of the Spirit (and we are), then our dreams and goals are God inspired. They may be for a season then something new comes along, but until then we follow the Spirit and live the dreams and goals we feel within us.
So many thoughts and memories are going through my heart and mind. There is something somewhere in my life that I can't quite identify when, but it was probably as a teenager I began learning a discernment about what is taught, even more so in church. The quote, "Let God be true, and everyman a liar" seems to embody the line of thinking I had from my childhood even.
As a college student the one time I attended the IBLP seminar I was cautioned by the young lady who would eventually become my wife that she had a good friend who radically changed from that one week, and didn't want that to happen to me. So I asked the Lord to show me what I needed. That week I ran out of ink in one pen and started another taking notes. But in the days, months, years, decades since then it has remained somewhere, meaning not evem used for reference. There were truths I learned from God's Word that week that have remained with me, but they may not have what was being taught. I just wanted what God would teach me through His Word. Ss Jesus said, "they are they which testify of me".
This past week has been one of turmoil. Switching major software for a small construction company has its moments (that can be taken two ways). And so I struggled with what the Lord wanted me to write for my meditation journal this week. Not feeling well from the turmoil I asked God to guide me as I typically do, to write what I need, what others may need. What is interesting was I completed it, even prepared it as a draft in Substack, but never put it on through as a Post. Early this morning I wake and write an entirely new Post. I knew that God was definitely in it. Like I assume everyone else writes I write for excellence (don't always get there), especially in communicating the truths of God's Word working in my life. Though the draft I wrote sounds right, it wasn't what I believe God wanted. So to your thoughts on "I need to give up something I love as my Isaac sacrifice", well, yeah, as you know, Abraham didn't loose his son, but he did put God before his son. God wants us whether we write, sing, raise a family, or anything that is found in our hand, He has first place, not that we have to give up what we enjoy, but that we may fully enjoy it in Him.
Consider the tithes of the first fruits in Israel. They have to bring it to the place where God chose to put His name. They brought it before the priests, AND THEN they were the ones who ate it! It it was to far to bring it they sold what they were going to bring, brought the money and bought there where the Lord chose to put His name, "whatever their soul lusteth after", then bring that before the Lord and ate it. (Deuteronomy 12)
God gives great desires, but He must be first, first in understanding His Word, first in the delights we have in our lives.
And now I have preachers on edge about part of the truths about tithing.
It’s interesting how things can be almost true and yet still be lies. I’ve seen how important it is to put God first (a clear scriptural truth) and yet so often religious humans, myself included, want to turn that truth into a lie as we make rules about it, add guilt and shame, and create a formula to gain God’s approval.
As we grow to be more like God, our desires change and we want what God wants. We don’t need rules, formulas, and guilt.
Your words on Isaac and Abraham ring so true. Isaac was God actually fulfilling Abraham's dream of carrying on his legacy through a biological heir. The story has nothing to do with us needing to sacrifice what we love most. What is this? Thanos on Voromir sacrificing his daughter for the Soul Stone? I think not. When you walk with God, when you begin the journey of loving him with all your heart, soul, and mind, your desires skew away from yourself and towards God. So that what you love, long for, and dream about lines up with his will. This is what Psalm 37:4 is about. When you delight yourself in the Lord, the desires of your heart match his and you are sure to get them. Also, the Lectio app is such a blessing. I have taken the daily prayer and made our prayer at the end of every service at my church.
I think you're right about the source of the idea that God wants us to give up anything and everything that brings us joy. That concept was, in my opinion, one of the works of the Evil One that Jesus came to destroy (1 John 3:8). Instead, Jesus replaced the ascetic ideas of Religion with the much better concept that He had come to bring Life, in all its fulness. As Paul went on to say, the Kingdom of God is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit (Romans 14:7).
One of the first things that Religion tries to do is to take away anything that even approaches joy and happiness. It does this in several ways. Firstly, many very sad Religious types assume that if you're happy, then there must be 'sin' involved somewhere. They see how Job made sacrifices for his kids in case they 'sinned' at one of their parties, and assume that the same principle holds for all kinds of happiness. Secondly, they extend this principle to banning anything that makes people feel good - dancing, music, alcohol; in short, anything where they project their own inability to maintain 'self-control' onto those purportedly in their care. They make what should be a fruit - self-control - into a task.
Conversely, and ironically, they also ascribe suffering to 'sin' too. Just like Job's friends, they accuse the suffering believer of having 'sinned' and thereby incurred the wrath of God.
To me, this no-win situation - damned if you do, damned if you don't - is typical of religion and all its strictures and rules, and this is why Jesus came to destroy all the works of the Evil One.
My final point is this: This blog and the rest of your work? They are your calling. I'm sure you feel they are your calling, at any rate, even though it isn't my place to tell you! And God's calling and gifting are irrevocable (Romans 11:29). It doesn't mean that you have to do this work forever, but while you are doing the work, this is God's calling and He does not withdraw the anointing; in fact it has been my experience that even if I did finish a season of doing God's thing, the anointing remained. Do not let the enemy try to rob you of your calling; remember the only way he can do this is if you actually decide yourself to give it up. And you can be sure that if God does want you to cease in this particular field, then He will tell you in no uncertain terms, and certainly not by using the hurts and damaging doctrine (like the Isaac doctrine) from your traumatised past. The trauma serves its purpose in building you up, as it has done over the last decade or so, but it will not be used in order to tear you down again.
I love your words of encouragement, Tony! They are always what I need to hear. 💕 Life, calling, purpose, joy, these are all gifts of a good God to his children. 😁
I've just happened across a Rob Bell quote, which is probably relevant:
“The point of the Abraham-and-Isaac story isn’t that you should sacrifice your kid but that you can leave behind any notion of a god who demands that you sacrifice your kid. Do you see how huge this is?”
In spite of the way Gothard shifted the emphasis in the Abraham story to "how much are YOU willing to sacrifice?" rather than "how much am I willing to sacrifice?" I think it's beyond doubt from the text that God requires that we love Him above all else. Sure, Gothard twisted this 'round and 'round, but putting God foremost is a key element of the account.
The very fact that Gothard's alcolytes immediately housed this in a "who will I marry" context shows their abandonment of the full counsel of the Scripture, for we are to live only in the present day and leave the future troubles to the future. Gothard taught a white, middle-class version of Christianity, a weird version of the culture in which he grew up. But, as Paul writes, the Christian women who love God foremost choose not to marry. More of Gothard's pick-and-choose style of manipulating Scripture.
In regard to Gothard's weird theology of instant revelations from God, Abraham, even after all his experiences with God, still sent out a servant to find a wife for Isaac, and there had to be all the stages of observation, gifts, and approval: no magical "word from the Lord" that resolved it in an instant. So all the nonsense of Gothard has to be set aside and purged from the way we understand the text.
But I think a reading of the text on its face makes it clear that it is about loving God above all else. Of course, this is why God set the task before Abraham and not anybody else. Learning to love God foremost usually takes a lifetime. Abraham was remarkable. And in a lot of families, living with a teenage boy IS the ultimate, daily sacrifice to God, requiring the virtues of patience, kindness, wisdom, etc....
Good topic. There are monastic orders that believe that giving everyone for God is looked favorably upon by Him. There were some monastic orders (not sure if they still exist) that taught that self deprivation and actual inflicting pain on themselves was a way to purify themselves. It’s interesting to learn about what people are willing to believe. I read the art I about Trumps advisor yesterday and that was both enlightening and scary.
There are times where God does call us to give up something in order to follow Him. It’s not done for His amusement nor is it to just test us….He already knows our hearts. He has plans within plans and I have experienced through obedience how He ties many seemingly random things together for a purpose. The season of Lent instills in people’s belief system that we can choose to give up things and deprive ourselves and it’s holy….i won’t belittle others beliefs but I don’t find great value in that mindset. People choosing what to give up and acting like it’s important.
What is important is staying in His word. Taking time in reflection and in conversation with Him. Being open to what He is doing around us and being obedient in following Him. I am going to check out that app today as I have found myself kinda uninspired with the one I have been using. I wish you well. 😃
I kinda rambled and missed my point earlier. If I were to try to recap, too many think Gods love, His Grace is transactional…. It’s based upon what we do, what we sacrifice. Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice that wiped out any questions about a transactional relationship. If we have a healthy relationship with God, he will lead us in directions that sometimes require letting go of certain things. It has nothing to do with piety but simply how far you will let Him lead.
I absolutely believe in giving up for God! And I enjoyed celebrating Lent this year, but I was surprised to see the self-deprecating believes still alive and well in my heart. 😬
Great post. I wonder, given your wide range of experience in Christiandom, if you ever encountered "seven steps to freedom in christ" ? I had a few years ago, a modified version and it was not helpful for my mental health and I suspect a lot of other peoples health. I don't know if I would put this in NAR category but it does reference demonic activities involved with mental illness quite a bit.
https://www.ficm.org/steps-to-freedom-in-christ/neil-andersons-the-origin-theology-rationale-of-the-steps-to-freedom-in-christ/
It sounds like a Gothard thing when I initially hear it. He loved steps! But I’ll check it out.
UPDATE: it’s Neil Anderson’s stuff which is Gothard adjacent. They liked to use (steal) each other’s formulas. This kind of thing was heavily taught in my Christian cult. My biggest problems with it are:
- It presents mental illness as a sin/demonic struggle that can be solved by following steps and choosing to believe or act a certain way.
- It pretends you can follow formulas to get specific results.
- It twists scripture and biblical ideas.
I think the whole thing is religious bogus that has just enough truth in it to sound plausible to people who don’t know better and want a fix. 😭
I’m not at all surprised that it was more harmful than helpful to you. And I’m sorry that you encountered it.
Wow I had no idea he was connected to Gothard! Or adjacent to! You always know your stuff :)
This is insightful since my old church, which I would call bethel/ihop adjacent, used a modified version of this. So you are spot on there is a connection between the NAR and your old cult!
https://antiochwaco.com/resource/freedom-from-idolatry-prayer-guide/
Here's one example, they modified over the years but the same principle of if you confess and pray over a list of things you'll feel better. And connecting voices and negative thoughts to demons or spirits does not help anyone get better!
It’s crazy how so many religious groups use formulas to offer control. Some of it is that they are actually connected but I think much of it is that we naturally gravitate to formulas trying to grab for security.
Great post - I did not know about the Lectio app and will check that out. I do She Reads Truth for my daily scripture practice and has worked really well. Sword of the word ⚔️
This repudiation of anything, joyful or pleasurable seems to be present primarily in Christian cults such as Gotthard, pseudo Christian cults, like the Jehovah’s Witnesses, and even in very fundamentalist Christian churches. The Baptists, God love them, with their prohibitions on drinking, dancing, smoking, etc. Come to mind. It is a manifestation of legalism, placing adherence to the law above the new covenant of grace. I believe that God gives us a certain gifts, and they are often things which we genuinely enjoy and have a passion for. It is true, that if we allow these things to be more important than God, they can become false idols, but I believe they are also things which God can use in their proper place and submission for his purposes.
I agree!
I have come to the belief that if the Kingdom of God is within us (and it is), and if we are the Temple of the Spirit (and we are), then our dreams and goals are God inspired. They may be for a season then something new comes along, but until then we follow the Spirit and live the dreams and goals we feel within us.
Love this!
So many thoughts and memories are going through my heart and mind. There is something somewhere in my life that I can't quite identify when, but it was probably as a teenager I began learning a discernment about what is taught, even more so in church. The quote, "Let God be true, and everyman a liar" seems to embody the line of thinking I had from my childhood even.
As a college student the one time I attended the IBLP seminar I was cautioned by the young lady who would eventually become my wife that she had a good friend who radically changed from that one week, and didn't want that to happen to me. So I asked the Lord to show me what I needed. That week I ran out of ink in one pen and started another taking notes. But in the days, months, years, decades since then it has remained somewhere, meaning not evem used for reference. There were truths I learned from God's Word that week that have remained with me, but they may not have what was being taught. I just wanted what God would teach me through His Word. Ss Jesus said, "they are they which testify of me".
This past week has been one of turmoil. Switching major software for a small construction company has its moments (that can be taken two ways). And so I struggled with what the Lord wanted me to write for my meditation journal this week. Not feeling well from the turmoil I asked God to guide me as I typically do, to write what I need, what others may need. What is interesting was I completed it, even prepared it as a draft in Substack, but never put it on through as a Post. Early this morning I wake and write an entirely new Post. I knew that God was definitely in it. Like I assume everyone else writes I write for excellence (don't always get there), especially in communicating the truths of God's Word working in my life. Though the draft I wrote sounds right, it wasn't what I believe God wanted. So to your thoughts on "I need to give up something I love as my Isaac sacrifice", well, yeah, as you know, Abraham didn't loose his son, but he did put God before his son. God wants us whether we write, sing, raise a family, or anything that is found in our hand, He has first place, not that we have to give up what we enjoy, but that we may fully enjoy it in Him.
Consider the tithes of the first fruits in Israel. They have to bring it to the place where God chose to put His name. They brought it before the priests, AND THEN they were the ones who ate it! It it was to far to bring it they sold what they were going to bring, brought the money and bought there where the Lord chose to put His name, "whatever their soul lusteth after", then bring that before the Lord and ate it. (Deuteronomy 12)
God gives great desires, but He must be first, first in understanding His Word, first in the delights we have in our lives.
And now I have preachers on edge about part of the truths about tithing.
It’s interesting how things can be almost true and yet still be lies. I’ve seen how important it is to put God first (a clear scriptural truth) and yet so often religious humans, myself included, want to turn that truth into a lie as we make rules about it, add guilt and shame, and create a formula to gain God’s approval.
As we grow to be more like God, our desires change and we want what God wants. We don’t need rules, formulas, and guilt.
Your words on Isaac and Abraham ring so true. Isaac was God actually fulfilling Abraham's dream of carrying on his legacy through a biological heir. The story has nothing to do with us needing to sacrifice what we love most. What is this? Thanos on Voromir sacrificing his daughter for the Soul Stone? I think not. When you walk with God, when you begin the journey of loving him with all your heart, soul, and mind, your desires skew away from yourself and towards God. So that what you love, long for, and dream about lines up with his will. This is what Psalm 37:4 is about. When you delight yourself in the Lord, the desires of your heart match his and you are sure to get them. Also, the Lectio app is such a blessing. I have taken the daily prayer and made our prayer at the end of every service at my church.
Yes, yes, YES!!!!! Thank you for the Thanos reference. That’s exactly it.
I think you're right about the source of the idea that God wants us to give up anything and everything that brings us joy. That concept was, in my opinion, one of the works of the Evil One that Jesus came to destroy (1 John 3:8). Instead, Jesus replaced the ascetic ideas of Religion with the much better concept that He had come to bring Life, in all its fulness. As Paul went on to say, the Kingdom of God is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit (Romans 14:7).
One of the first things that Religion tries to do is to take away anything that even approaches joy and happiness. It does this in several ways. Firstly, many very sad Religious types assume that if you're happy, then there must be 'sin' involved somewhere. They see how Job made sacrifices for his kids in case they 'sinned' at one of their parties, and assume that the same principle holds for all kinds of happiness. Secondly, they extend this principle to banning anything that makes people feel good - dancing, music, alcohol; in short, anything where they project their own inability to maintain 'self-control' onto those purportedly in their care. They make what should be a fruit - self-control - into a task.
Conversely, and ironically, they also ascribe suffering to 'sin' too. Just like Job's friends, they accuse the suffering believer of having 'sinned' and thereby incurred the wrath of God.
To me, this no-win situation - damned if you do, damned if you don't - is typical of religion and all its strictures and rules, and this is why Jesus came to destroy all the works of the Evil One.
My final point is this: This blog and the rest of your work? They are your calling. I'm sure you feel they are your calling, at any rate, even though it isn't my place to tell you! And God's calling and gifting are irrevocable (Romans 11:29). It doesn't mean that you have to do this work forever, but while you are doing the work, this is God's calling and He does not withdraw the anointing; in fact it has been my experience that even if I did finish a season of doing God's thing, the anointing remained. Do not let the enemy try to rob you of your calling; remember the only way he can do this is if you actually decide yourself to give it up. And you can be sure that if God does want you to cease in this particular field, then He will tell you in no uncertain terms, and certainly not by using the hurts and damaging doctrine (like the Isaac doctrine) from your traumatised past. The trauma serves its purpose in building you up, as it has done over the last decade or so, but it will not be used in order to tear you down again.
Hope this helps <3
Very good Tony.
I love your words of encouragement, Tony! They are always what I need to hear. 💕 Life, calling, purpose, joy, these are all gifts of a good God to his children. 😁
I've just happened across a Rob Bell quote, which is probably relevant:
“The point of the Abraham-and-Isaac story isn’t that you should sacrifice your kid but that you can leave behind any notion of a god who demands that you sacrifice your kid. Do you see how huge this is?”
Yeah, right? The new covenant…so many people still in the prison. Jesus opened the cell door but people want to stay in and keep others in.
In spite of the way Gothard shifted the emphasis in the Abraham story to "how much are YOU willing to sacrifice?" rather than "how much am I willing to sacrifice?" I think it's beyond doubt from the text that God requires that we love Him above all else. Sure, Gothard twisted this 'round and 'round, but putting God foremost is a key element of the account.
The very fact that Gothard's alcolytes immediately housed this in a "who will I marry" context shows their abandonment of the full counsel of the Scripture, for we are to live only in the present day and leave the future troubles to the future. Gothard taught a white, middle-class version of Christianity, a weird version of the culture in which he grew up. But, as Paul writes, the Christian women who love God foremost choose not to marry. More of Gothard's pick-and-choose style of manipulating Scripture.
In regard to Gothard's weird theology of instant revelations from God, Abraham, even after all his experiences with God, still sent out a servant to find a wife for Isaac, and there had to be all the stages of observation, gifts, and approval: no magical "word from the Lord" that resolved it in an instant. So all the nonsense of Gothard has to be set aside and purged from the way we understand the text.
But I think a reading of the text on its face makes it clear that it is about loving God above all else. Of course, this is why God set the task before Abraham and not anybody else. Learning to love God foremost usually takes a lifetime. Abraham was remarkable. And in a lot of families, living with a teenage boy IS the ultimate, daily sacrifice to God, requiring the virtues of patience, kindness, wisdom, etc....
Yes! Loving God the most. 😊
Good topic. There are monastic orders that believe that giving everyone for God is looked favorably upon by Him. There were some monastic orders (not sure if they still exist) that taught that self deprivation and actual inflicting pain on themselves was a way to purify themselves. It’s interesting to learn about what people are willing to believe. I read the art I about Trumps advisor yesterday and that was both enlightening and scary.
There are times where God does call us to give up something in order to follow Him. It’s not done for His amusement nor is it to just test us….He already knows our hearts. He has plans within plans and I have experienced through obedience how He ties many seemingly random things together for a purpose. The season of Lent instills in people’s belief system that we can choose to give up things and deprive ourselves and it’s holy….i won’t belittle others beliefs but I don’t find great value in that mindset. People choosing what to give up and acting like it’s important.
What is important is staying in His word. Taking time in reflection and in conversation with Him. Being open to what He is doing around us and being obedient in following Him. I am going to check out that app today as I have found myself kinda uninspired with the one I have been using. I wish you well. 😃
Also, I hope you like Lectio 365 as much as I do. 😁
I kinda rambled and missed my point earlier. If I were to try to recap, too many think Gods love, His Grace is transactional…. It’s based upon what we do, what we sacrifice. Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice that wiped out any questions about a transactional relationship. If we have a healthy relationship with God, he will lead us in directions that sometimes require letting go of certain things. It has nothing to do with piety but simply how far you will let Him lead.
I was a little let down with the content for today. I will try for a week and see if it grows on me.
Yeah, today was meh. 🫤 But they have a midday and evening that might be better. I like you idea of giving it a week.
I absolutely believe in giving up for God! And I enjoyed celebrating Lent this year, but I was surprised to see the self-deprecating believes still alive and well in my heart. 😬